SPEAKER_02: 0:00

I had a situation where I had a large complex, so I did have juice with respect to the lenders because they did want to lend there. And we had to get the a U.S. congressman involved to and it was a mistake. They were on the list for an incorrect reason. And it was so difficult to communicate with them that we literally had to engage a congressman who set up a meeting with Fannie Mae representatives. And I went from never hearing from anybody to about 20 people on the Zoom meeting with me.

SPEAKER_01: 0:27

This is the Co-op and Condo Insider, the podcast dedicated to New York's cooperative and condominium communities. This is your trusted source for the latest insights, strategies, and stories shaping the world of shared housing. You will hear from the people who are leaders in this community. Information and insights you will not hear anywhere else. If you want to stay ahead of the curve, you're in the right place. The views and opinions expressed on this program do not necessarily reflect those of the host or any affiliated individuals or organizations.

SPEAKER_02: 0:56

Hello and welcome to the Co-op and Condo Insider, where we explore the real-world issues facing co-op and condo communities across New York City with insight, expertise, and a healthy dose of straight talk. I'm your host, Jeffrey Mazell, co-op attorney and legal advisor to the president's co-op and condo counsel. I'm thrilled to be joined by my co-host Richard Solomon, a seasoned voice in public radio for over 20 years. Richard has taken his listeners around the world to meet experts, newsmakers, and the people making a real difference in our everyday lives. Richard, great to have you on the mic today.

SPEAKER_00: 1:34

Love being here.

SPEAKER_02: 1:35

And we have a very special guest today. And uh we go around the world. Sometimes we even go to Massachusetts, and we have Stephen Marcus. Stephen, welcome. Thank you. Thanks for uh having me on. Oh my pleasure. So Stephen is a condominium attorney and homeowner association attorney in the law firm of Alcock and Marcus. And uh you are looking where are you in Massachusetts?

SPEAKER_03: 1:59

We're we're in the uh town of Braintree, Massachusetts.

SPEAKER_02: 2:03

Is that is that a suburb of Boston or?

SPEAKER_03: 2:05

Uh we're um uh used to be part of Quincy, and so it's where like John Quincy Adams lives. It was about seven, eight miles outside of the uh south of the city. Okay, there you go.

SPEAKER_02: 2:19

So it's the Boston area. And explain to us the the nature of your firm and and your client base.

SPEAKER_03: 2:24

So we um well we practice mainly condominium law uh in the uh New England states. Uh we do a little bit of work in uh uh in Florida, uh and we typically represent condominium associations, lenders, some developers, uh uh in creating condominium associations and uh advising uh existing condominium associations from everything from rules and regulations to amendments, etc.

SPEAKER_00: 3:02

So I guess we're gonna be talking about Fannie Mae today. So the first question is could you demystify for all of us what may if what Fannie Mae does and what do they actually do with respect to co-ops, condos, lending, mortgages? Because it has to be sort of explained to the average person because nobody really understands what they do.

SPEAKER_03: 3:23

Okay, so Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are government-sponsored entities. So they were created by uh the Congress, but are supposed to run independent of the government. Um uh and basically what they do is they buy loans from local lenders so that more money is infused back to the local lending community to lend out uh so that whether it be single-family homes or condominiums or homeowner associations, that there's money available for people um uh uh in home ownership. So they infuse monies that give lenders the abilities to lend more monies, uh and the the theory and the uh idea make perfect sense. Now I say that they are supposed to be separate from government, but in 2008, under the uh uh Housing Economic Reform Act, uh uh Fannie and Freddie were put into conservatorship with the Federal Housing Finance Agency, FHFA.

SPEAKER_00: 4:39

What's the difference between Fannie Mick versus Freddie Mack? Like what's the functional difference?

SPEAKER_03: 4:44

Two two uh two separate and distinct entities that do the same thing. They both uh they both buy buy loans from local lenders, it infuses billions back into the uh lending communities, and they essentially are competitors.

SPEAKER_02: 5:04

How did your firm become involved in issues surrounding Fannie Mae and condominium lending?

SPEAKER_03: 5:10

So we've so we started hearing about this blacklist, uh or what we got uh what was called the ineligible list. So after the surfside building and uh how how did you become aware of that?

SPEAKER_02: 5:23

Like how did that come about? Did someone like were you hearing it from your clients, from lenders, from brokers?

SPEAKER_03: 5:31

Um after the surfside building went went down, we were hearing it from uh condominium uh associations that were not eligible for loans. And then uh we had not heard of that before, though there had always been an ineligible list, but there were only a few hundred condominium associations, I think, on it in the early stages, post-servicide, uh the numbers started skyrocketing, and there's uh presently currently about 5,500 community uh condominium associations throughout the country that are on the list. So there's a few hundred post-servicide, it exploded, and all of a sudden people are getting denied. And it was, well, how do you get this list? How do you find out if you're on this list? And there were no answers.

SPEAKER_02: 6:23

So just walk it back a little bit. Uh surfside, uh, for those of you who don't know, is is explain. What was that about five, what was it, about seven years ago?

SPEAKER_03: 6:34

June June, June 24th, uh, 2021. Uh the the uh surfside chimplane tower south, uh condominium uh tragically collapsed, uh tragically killing 98 people. Um the the collapse itself and the 1.2 billion with the B settlement uh uh got to the attention of the world and certainly of the lending community and Thanny and Freddie Mac, and it's are our associations that we have give give uh loans to borrowers to. Uh are they in a state of disrepair? Uh that something similar is going to happen.

SPEAKER_02: 7:18

So basically, one building collapses and five to six thousand condominiums are punished, essentially, or blacklisted.

SPEAKER_03: 7:30

That's a perfect way of putting uh of uh of putting it. And from the eyes of keep in mind, Danny and Freddie are actually for sort of bureaucracies, were always very, very easy to deal with. Uh uh going back to around 1979, 1980 when they became big players, uh from Bob Cooper to um uh Bob Posta to Dwayne Cooper to others, they were pretty pretty easy to deal with, get waivers from, and all that. Uh FHFA taking over uh under the conservatorship, uh, we saw a change in the personality of Fannie Mac and Freddie Mack, that all of a sudden they were much tougher. And I think that they were it was because they were taking their orders from FHFA, which was risk adverse, whereas Fannie and Freddie were wanted to lend to the uh local communities so people could buy homes, et cetera. Uh and things tightened up after the surf side collapse.

SPEAKER_02: 8:38

Yeah, so that timeline makes sense because I've been practicing all that time, and I I I don't remember this ever being an issue until it never was, yeah, yeah. Um so basically, if I'm getting this correct, uh Fannie Mae was uh fairly user-friendly and and productive, I'll call it, in in in in advancing loans to the condominium associate uh to condominium sales. Uh up the conservative ship was a result of 2008, you said? Was that the housing bubble of 2008?

SPEAKER_03: 9:12

Is that yeah, and the interesting thing is FDIC, which am with a much more severe issue in the early 90s, was around for about four years. Uh the FHFA conservatorship has gone uh since 2008, uh with uh some talk now about maybe loosening the reins, but those conversations will be will take a long time in coming. And Thanny and Freddie are actually turning huge profits at this point.

SPEAKER_02: 9:53

Uh so so how does it come out of conservativeship and who makes that application? Is it Congress? And has it come to the I guess there would be a vote? Has there been a bill proposed or a vote or any discussion?

SPEAKER_03: 10:09

There are all sorts of discussions that um uh so there's a new director of FHFA, Bill Poulty, and he's a relative of the Poulty Holmes family. Uh so knows housing, knows the importance of housing and all that. And there are discussions by the president uh uh as to whether Fanny and Freddie should come out of the conservatorship uh or whether there should continue to be government controls. There's some discussions about should Fanny and Freddie Mack uh become one entity, which has been met with uh disfavor by the lending community, opposes the idea of one entity. Uh uh so discussions have occurred, but they're fairly recent.

SPEAKER_02: 10:59

So is your firm involved in any advocacy on these issues, or you just follow it closely?

SPEAKER_03: 11:05

Uh we're following that closely. See, um uh we're heavily involved with CAI, which has much less of a presence in New York City, uh, but on a national level has been very involved with uh a seat at the table with Danny and Freddie, and this ineligible list for blacklist and discussions uh which uh predominantly have been about insurance, uh getting rejected because of insurance and getting rejected because of critical repeers.

SPEAKER_02: 11:39

So CAI is what is that condominium?

SPEAKER_03: 11:42

Uh Community Associations Institute.

SPEAKER_02: 11:45

And that's a that's a national organization.

SPEAKER_03: 11:47

It's a national organization and Falls Church, uh Virginia, I believe, uh with local local chapters that has a um uh small concentration uh of membership in New York City, but outside of New York is uh fairly active with uh uh uh uh issues uh uh that include co-ops, but much more condominiums and homeowner associations, I would say.

SPEAKER_02: 12:19

Well, when when we get offline, and I I don't want to spend a lot of time, we will discuss uh unifying our efforts because we we we do have a a strong number and a large number of co-ops that are adversely affected and probably similar issues as the condominium associations with Fannie Mae. So we we could maybe increase the voice uh uh of this organization or or or lobby, so to speak.

SPEAKER_03: 12:45

Okay. Did you ever deal with Doug Klein? Uh no, no. Oh yeah, he he was with the National Association of Housing Cooperatives.

SPEAKER_02: 12:53

Yeah, oh yes, actually I've I've worked with them uh when we uh were advocating for the paycheck protection uh program to include co-ops in New York during the uh pandemic. And uh thankfully the major the minority leader at the New York of the of the U.S. Senate at the time was uh and is Chuck Schumer, and he lives in a co-op. So uh we we we had a a friendly advocate there and it worked out well for all of us. Okay, so we have 2008, we have the everlasting uh receivership of the uh of Fannie Mae, and then we have one building collapse. What happens from the collapse of the building to the creation of the blacklist? How how did this manifest itself? You know?

SPEAKER_03: 13:42

Okay, so the list existed, but there weren't more than at tops maybe 500 associations that were on the list prior to the uh serveside collapse. So nobody really paid attention or knew about or did anything about the the uh the list, or maybe it was only a few hundred associations after the sericide, about a year after uh the Fannie Mae tightened up its requirements on critical repairs and on insurance requirements, et cetera. Uh but a predominant uh focus on critical repairs, structural inspections and the like. And uh uh more and more buildings were being looked at with a much sharper eye because of the uh the changes, and there was even an addendum to the lender questionnaire that associations are supposed to fill out, or the manager is, or the lender is, and uh with very tough questions on uh are there any uh uh structural inspections, are there any reserve studies, are there any conditions that uh would affect um uh the soundness and safety of the uh building buildings, and more and more uh associations were uh caught in the uh so a building goes down, other associations across the country get nervous, probably especially in Florida, but all over the country, they start doing structural inspections, they do an inspection that shows a few million dollars of repairs, and uh which is a great thing, I would think, except now you say, okay, we have a report that says that we have to do three million dollars of repairs, and Fanny May says, well, until you've completed all three million dollars worth, uh you're not eligible for loans uh from us.

SPEAKER_02: 15:51

So I I I'm assuming at Surfside they didn't do uh these uh reviews, engineering reviews.

SPEAKER_03: 16:00

And then well it wasn't until after Surfside collapsed that the structural inspections uh became uh and the questions that Fannie Mae were asking became much more uh direct in terms of look they wanted lenders looking at the structural soundness of the building, any structural uh uh re uh repairs, roofs, facades, uh mechanical system, and the structures. And if you had any of those issues and hadn't corrected them, uh then uh it would make you ineligible until you fix them.

SPEAKER_00: 16:44

So from a tort perspective, you're discouraging repair and maintenance, which only is against public policy. How do you navigate that with Fannie Mae?

SPEAKER_03: 16:56

One would think that yeah, you hear about the surf side collapse and you want to do a structural inspection, and it's well, if we do a if we do an inspection, then uh and it's not good, then nobody's gonna be able to. Fanny and Freddie buy these days like 50% of uh loans for single-family homes and condominiums in the United States. It used to be up to like 70%. FHA buys about 5% of them. Uh so all of a sudden, 55% of the market uh for loans has been closed out because Fannie Mae won't buy the loans. So it's an excellent question, Richard. Uh uh in terms of what do you do? And obviously, as an attorney, I'd probably have to say, well, you have to do the the inspections, uh, but the associations and the managers, they really don't want the reports, uh, because if the reports are adverse, then the association could become unmarketable.

SPEAKER_02: 18:02

Yeah, they also and and we have this also in New York with co-ops, uh, they become liabilities in your financial statements. Uh and Richard, I guess I I understand your your point is thinking, yeah, that that that's how attorneys think, and it's it's all it's all good and correct. But but but we're talking about a market, and you know, I once wrote an article about getting full body scans. And then, you know, does it help you if you know you get what you're gonna die from? Well, you may die from in 20 years, or you may not, you know, it finds everything wrong with you, but you know, there's the balance between, you know, uh uh, you know, go, you know, having a functioning building versus putting your building into bankruptcy for contingencies that may or may not happen. And when you have, at least in my experience, when you have engineers look at buildings, they're gonna tell you everything wrong. Because if they miss something, they have liability.

SPEAKER_03: 19:00

And and the but and radiologists are the same. Right, exactly. So a re a radiologist does a does a full body scan, uh, more likely than not, uh, the three of us are probably gonna have, uh and everybody else in the world is probably gonna have something uh that's gonna be seen, and maybe it's been there since we were born, uh, and it's never gonna be an issue, and we'll die of old age like everybody else. Uh, but once you say it, uh you have to address it. So you do. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 19:35

So I'll I'll give you another lawyer's answer, Richard. It's a balancing question. And right now the scales are pressed against, you know, um don't lend. Uh, you know, uh the exposure is tremendous. Uh Stephen, are you familiar with the condominium market now in Florida? Because I've heard it's explained, it's a disaster, correct?

SPEAKER_03: 19:59

It's a disaster.

SPEAKER_02: 20:00

So can you explain what's going on? Because that could happen here in New York too.

SPEAKER_03: 20:05

So so uh almost like um uh suicide was a geographical event. Uh what does that mean? That well, that the first state to re to react to the collapse wasn't it should have been every condominium in the country, if not the world. Uh instead, the first state to react was almost like it was contagious, uh, was Florida. So it's well, as of January 1st, 2025, all buildings were supposed to have reserve studies that included a structural inspection, put aside money for the for uh for uh uh for those repairs. And um uh DeSanthis uh in uh 2025 actually fought for legislation that cut back the timetable so it didn't have to be done by January 1st, 2025, since half the condominiums had not done the inspections and gave them a little more time to fund and and and things of the uh that nature. Uh so maybe the first response from the legislature in Florida was a slight overreaction. It was a real problem, but um most associations weren't in a position they uh to comply in in time. And um uh uh I guess condominium buyers are made up of the uh newly wed and the nearly dead. And uh on the nearly dead part, uh uh the saying is uh that we have to have fully funded reserves. The answer is fully funded reserves, I hardly buy green bananas.

SPEAKER_02: 22:04

Uh if you could give a number like the average assessment that you're looking at or increase in common charges, uh is there a number you could throw out there or just that I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03: 22:17

I I I have one, but uh we're seeing uh uh uh uh assessments that are staggering. We're seeing six uh six figures per unit owner assessments in some cases, with where I've heard numbers of a uh uh 40 percent decline in sales and lowered prices, et cetera, with condominium associations. And certainly uh if you're in a uh uh high-rise condominium, uh the uh uh and you're on the water, the reaction may may be uh more severe. Uh but uh and there are people who can afford those, but Surbside was a building that was built in 1980. And some of the problems, because NIST is the government has been appointed by the government to do the investigation, uh, and the first part of the investigation indicated a problem with the with the pool deck on the first floor, uh that may have been the start of the collapse. Uh but the uh the issue with the um uh the the inspections is that uh the boards had kicked the can. And in 2018, for example, they had an engineer who looked at the building and said you need$9 million of repairs. Uh either they threw out the board or they voted against uh doing that assessment. And then uh in 2021, uh they brought back the same engineer who was now$15 million to do the repairs. And as the building was collapsing, there was a petition going around by the unit owners to rescind the assessment. And the assessments were staggering, like$250,000 per unit.

SPEAKER_02: 24:19

So and and and my last question on surface side was did it have something to do with it, it was on a soft surface. It was uh uh the building was uh that's what I've heard. It was a sandy surface or foundation versus something like New York City or Manhattan where it's on it's on bedrock.

SPEAKER_03: 24:39

Um the issues that I've heard since the collapse were that I I think uh uh I I think the concerns that I heard were that the water had uh the salt had certainly beat up on the rebar uh uh uh that holds together the the the concrete and all that. What I've heard since the collapse is that NIST, while investigating and just had the foundation left, was constantly pumping water out because the water table had risen dramatically uh over the years, maybe because of climate change or for whatever reasons. Uh but I think it was a combination of the water and uh that the uh the water from the ocean, the salt, and the uh uh the water that had uh the water table which had increased at the building, which which led to the uh the issues that that that uh were to follow.

SPEAKER_02: 25:51

So we we we have one collapse and it results in you know basically um a poison pill for the entire condominium market.

SPEAKER_03: 26:01

You guys find out about a blacklist, what'd you do about it when you found out so not being shy, we uh we said Don't be shy. You can say anything you want. Uh we say, well, let's try a freedom of information request. Uh Freedom of Information Act request. Uh and it was sort of like, okay, we'll send it to Fanny and Freddie. They're under conservatorship with FHFA. And they responded back, not uh uh unsurprisingly, saying we're not the government, we're not subject to the Freedom of Information Act. Uh we then sent a FOIA Freedom of Information React request to FHFA as conservative. Uh fourth anime, uh FHFA responded back with something along the lines of we're not aware of any list. And did you eventually get the list? We did. How did you get it? Uh I can't say we it wasn't from a FOIA request.

SPEAKER_02: 27:08

We don't want the Eastern District of Virginia investigating you, the uh the they seem to be on a roll there. All right, so so uh how does how does the condominium find out they're on the block list? You know, I mean, you know, is it is it public information? Is there a way to find out? Because that's such an important thing. You're living in your home and you might not be able to sell it uh with a comp you know with a with a compliant loan, with a marketable loan. How do I find that out? That's such critical information.

SPEAKER_03: 27:40

So that's a great question. So but unfortunately, the uh blacklist or ineligible last um uh had a non-disclosure at the top of it uh that was confidential under some NDA, so that only lenders were supposed to have a copy of it, uh, or services for Fannie Mae or and Freddie Mac. Um so it seems like services for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and us um uh somehow were the only people with the the complete list uh now of 5,500 associations uh um and CAI and that I I I was uh active with it was this this is crazy, there should be uh some transparency so associations and unit owners know if they're on their if they're on the list. And that took a couple of years uh to occur, and what Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack uh what Fannie Mae anyway did is they put up on their portal something where you could look up an individual condominium, and if you have the taxpayer ID number and the address, and you're a board member or a property manager, you can find out if you're on the list, and then you could have an interactive process with somebody from Fannie Mae to discuss what does that mean and how do you get off of the uh the list. But but um uh most people don't know that that exists. Um uh and it's difficult to navigate because you can only do one association at a time and need the taxpayer ID number, etc. Uh so most people found out because somebody would lose the sale. Why why'd the space sale follow through?

SPEAKER_00: 29:46

What objective criteria did they have to put someone on the list as opposed to just saying it's arbitrary, like you know, it was that there was a cutoff of a number or something, but what were the criteria?

SPEAKER_03: 30:00

Okay, so for example on insurance, because they started looking not only at the suicide issues, but also sericide was probably dramatically under possibly dramatically underinsured, though uh Great American paid the full amount of the policy limits plus another thirty million dollars, I think about sixty-seven million dollars into court, I believe, uh to pay for uh uh the insurance side for the association property claims. Uh but um uh uh the the biggest concern as to why people are on the list, it will on the list that the lenders see, and uh and that we were seeing month to month, uh it would show uh the name of the condominium and why it's on the list. Insurance, critical repairs. Uh so if it weren't insured for 100% replacement cost, if it had more than a 5% deductible on the stated limits, uh that would disqualify it. Uh carriers have started insuring roofs of condominiums at actual cash value, uh uh, which after 20 years is zero, so wouldn't pay, and Fannie Mae wouldn't accept that because they wouldn't pay anything for damage to the roofs because they had depreciated down to nothing. Um uh and then critical repairs would have been the structural uh inspections and other inspections that may have come up either because the association was full with thinking and did it on their own or in reaction to the serfside, they got the inspections, and those inspections would be the second biggest reason uh being the critical repairs.

SPEAKER_02: 31:42

So can the association uh I'll call it grieve the process or whatever or challenge the process, or does it have to be the lender-only? How do you cure this?

SPEAKER_03: 31:55

Okay, so the association and in theory with the interactive process uh is supposed to get some guidance from Fannie Mae in terms of how to uh how to cure it. For example, if you're not insured for 100% replacement cost, um uh then the answer is simple, other than dollars, uh, with the insurance market paying what it what it's been like uh with increases uh in master policies, uh you cure it by getting uh the proper amounts of insurance.

SPEAKER_02: 32:30

But how do I is there a way for me to like produce that certificate of insurance and get it to somebody at Fannie Mae who actually looks at it and says, okay, you're off the blacklist?

SPEAKER_03: 32:40

They they they sort of want you dealing with one of the services, uh, or there are a few companies around that um uh uh sort of like authorized representatives on behalf of Fannie Mae, and they can help with the process of getting people out uh off the list. Uh but it's not as easy as saying, uh, gee, we bought more insurance, we're off the list. Um uh we found at least up to this point that a lender or servicer really needs to sort of go or a company. Uh there I think there's uh one in New York City, and I think there's uh a few across the country that that deal with uh uh Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and with uh lenders and uh uh uh decide whether associations can be approved or not approved, and also uh if they're on the list, how to get them off the list.

SPEAKER_02: 33:45

I mean, my my experience, uh and again it's mostly with co-ops, is especially with a smaller building, you know, the lenders are gonna say they're not on the list. Uh we're just not gonna lend there. You know, it's not worth the work to to to to to get them in compliance. Uh because you know, I I and again, I've I I was just telling you before we came on, I had a situation where I had a large complex, so I did have juice with respect to the lenders because they did want to lend there, and we had to get the a U.S. congressman involved to to and it was a mistake. They were on the list for an incorrect reason, and it was so difficult to communicate with them that we literally had to engage a congressman who set up a meeting uh with Fannie Mae representatives, and I went from never hearing from anybody to had about 20 people on the Zoom meeting with me, and we did resolve it, and and they were appreciative uh that we brought it to their attention.

SPEAKER_03: 34:37

But you know, my experience is but that's after a that's after a congressional inquiry. Uh and any request by a congressman to do anything is legally considered a congressional inquiry.

SPEAKER_02: 34:49

Um it's I need to bring a congressional inquiry for really I I'll tell you exactly what a a um one of the co-ops was foreclosed, so they had a representative on the property, it's a 2,000 unit co-op, and they were redoing the roofs, and they had like a nor'easter, and a couple of the uh on the new roof, a couple of the tiles fell to the ground. So we reported it to Fannie Mae, who said there's critical repairs that need to be made. And we said, no, there's not, you know, this is a brand. And and by the way, we had just done tens of millions in improvements, and ironically, Fannie Mae was the lender on the underlying mortgage for the co-op.

SPEAKER_03: 35:28

So so interesting.

SPEAKER_02: 35:29

Yeah, so yeah, it's like you you paid the money, you know, and we had to go back to the to the bank to show that we did like 30 million dollars in work and it worked out, but it took months and we lost a lot of deals. A lot of people got hurt, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 35:42

And and if Fannie Mae had been what was the lender, they were already in on the risk for 10 million dollars, I assume.

SPEAKER_02: 35:51

Yeah, they're it was a 50 million dollar. No, it but it's it was apples and oranges, you know, it might as well have been in another country.

SPEAKER_03: 35:58

Yeah, no, no, no, you're yeah, you're talking about a list. Uh we as the lender, all we care about is uh are you making your mortgage payments. Uh but as the compliance people uh were saying a few tiles blew off, uh it sounds like you have major critical repairs. It's it's difficult.

SPEAKER_02: 36:18

Well, Steven, we're coming up towards the end of our show here, and we really appreciate your your your time and your expertise. If there's anything to wrap this up, what advice would you give condominium associations with respect to dealing with Fannie Mae proactively or defensively?

SPEAKER_03: 36:35

You know, uh I don't think the takeaway should be don't do structural inspections, etc. I think the the or reserve studies, I think all that for for good governance uh are things that have to be done. Um CAI and other stakeholders, other mortgage bankers and others across the country uh are having meetings also under an NDA with Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and FHFA, as I understand it. I'm I'm not uh part of those discussions, but I think they're the top two items are uh all the rejections because of insurance and critical repairs, and trying to get some reasonable balance, uh not in terms of just ignoring uh serious problems that could lead to serious problems such as a collapse. Um uh, but uh there is some balancing. And I'm told, without being told much, that the conversation's going in the right direction, that there's a change with the new director, Bill Poulty, as director. And we're hopeful that uh um uh we'll keep chipping away at it. Uh some people by uh diplomacy uh and us by the sword and the dagger or however uh we have to fight it uh congressionally and all that. But I'm hopeful that these discussions that are taking place uh by the stakeholders will result in some positive changes because 5,500, if if you had 5,000 condominiums and each had modest 100 units each, uh uh you were talking about a 2,000 unit co-op. If they had 100 units each, that's a uh half a million um the uh uh the condominium units of each one's owned by two people, that's a million uh people that are affected across the country. That's too many people who are sort of stuck in their homes, who most likely, prior to the suicide collapse, got their loans bought by Fannie Mayor Freddie Mack. So, but they can't sell, and so it can't stay the way it is.

SPEAKER_02: 38:55

So unfortunately, the whole city of Boston could lose their homes. That's not true.

SPEAKER_03: 39:00

Exactly, exactly. As long as we don't lose the Red Sox or the Reds uh the uh Patriots.

SPEAKER_02: 39:06

Okay, well, I'm a Mets fan, so you you only hated me in '86, but uh we're over it. We're running out of time here. This was a a really uh uh great conversation. I'd like to continue it offline because uh with respect to your ongoing efforts, because again, I'd like to tie in some of the New York people with you. Uh yeah, that would be great. We are knowledgeable, and and this is a very serious issue here. Um, so I want to thank you for your time. And you are now officially a co-op and condo insider. So congratulations on that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: 39:41

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02: 39:42

And and we really appreciate your time, Stephen. And that that's it for the show. Uh, we hope you enjoyed listening and uh subscribe and listen to this podcast and many podcasts to come in the future. Thank you for listening.